Parole Hearing
David Berkowitz Parole Hearing, July 9, 2002
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This is an Exact Transcript of the First Parole Hearing for David Berkowitz, July 9, 2002
1 PAROLE BOARD HEARING
2 STATE OF NEW YORK
EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT
3 DIVISION OF PAROLE
4**********************************************************************
**********
5 In the Matter of
6 DAVID BERKOWITZ
7 DIN# 78-A-1976
NYSID# 04176354Q
8**********************************************************************
**********
HELD AT: Sullivan Correctional Facility
9 Fallsburg, New York
10 Parole board Hearing
11 July 9, 2002
12
BEFORE: COMMISSIONER IRENE L. PLATT
13 COMMISSIONER PATRICIA R.
TAPPAN
14
ALSO PRESENT: LUIS ALVARADO, SPO
15 JOHN KEHOE, FPO 11
PAULA CHIN, APA
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 M&F REPORTING SERVICE
P.O. BOX 4279
DIVISION OF PAROLE
23 NEW WINDSOR, NEW YORK 12553
RECEIVED
(845-562-5190
(Rubber Stamp)
24
25
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David Berkowitz DIN# 78-8-1976
1 INTERVIEW BY COMMISSIONER TAPPAN:
2 Q. Good morning.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. David Berkowitz?
5 A. Yes, ma'am.
6 Q. I'm Commissioner Tappan. With me today is
7 Commissioner Platt.
8 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Good morning,
Mr.
9 Berkowitz.
10 Q. This is your initial appearance before the Parole
11 Board. You were supposed to come last month and you
12 chose not to come?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you chose to come this month?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Any difference, any reason you want to say?
17 A. Yes, I had a lot of anxiety and I thought it would
18 be best for the families that I not come at all and I
19 -- after a lot of soul searching and a lot of praying
20 I just decided it would be best to just come and face
21 you and apologize. I'm not seeking parole.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I don't feel I deserve parole. I just came to
24 apologize for what happened in the past.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Why is that, Mr.
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David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Berkowitz? Why do you feel you don't deserve parole?
2 THE INMATE: Well, for the crimes that were
3 committed and people that are suffering today because
4 of my actions. I know they have a lot of pain and
5 hurt that will probably never go away so I - yeah, I
6 regret what happened. I wish I can go back and change
7 the past. I can't, so I have to -- I came to terms
8 with this and realize that I’m here in prison.
9 Q. By law, you’re entitled to this parole hearing.
10 A. Yes
11 Q. And by law we have things that we need to talk
12 about at the parole hearing to make a reasonable
13 decision --
14 A. I understand.
15 Q. -- about whether you’re eligible for parole or not.
16 Do you want to go through the regular parole hearing?
17 I mean we certainly want to do that. We’re willing to
18 it. Commissioner Platt and I would like to hear
19 answers to some questions, if you would like to answer
20 them?
21 A. I have mixed feelings. Right now I know the media
22 already started again with --
23 Q. Well, we’re not concerned about the media.
24 A. I know, but they -- always have more fuel. I
25 was hoping that after this was over with, after the 25
4
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-
1976
1 year mark and the media says all that they can
2 possibly say, that everybody, myself, my family, the
3 victims’ families can all get on with their lives.
4 Q. But you have to understand that the max that you
5 can get held is 24 months. And if you’re held 24
6 months, at that time when you’re coming up for parole
7 again , believe me, you know that all your victims and
8 everybody in the community is also going to know that
9 you ’re up again?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So it doesn’t go away. I don’t want you to be
12 misled to think that two years from now no one is
13 going to be interested in David Berkowitz. They will.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Probably forever,
Mr.
15 Berkowitz, as the commissioner says, but we want you
16 to understand that we’re also aware of the media.
17 Everybody is aware of you and the media in this case.
18 But we‘re not doing the interview for the media.
19 A. Okay.
20 COMMISSIONER PLATT: This is for us.
21 Q. We don’t have any concern about that. We’ll do the
22 right thing. We know that we will ask questions that
23 will satisfy us as parole commissioners in what we
24 need to do to make reasonable decisions.
25 A. I understand.
5
David Berkowitz DIN# 7 8-A-1976
1 Q. If you want to go through that, that’s fine. If
2 you choose not to, we will respect that.
3 A. I’ll try my best to help you out.
4 Q. All right. All right. Well, first of all we have
5 to talk about what you’re in here for.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And obviously there’s no question about that. 25
8 years to life.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And multiple, multiple counts. Six people who have
11 murdered and seven, I believe, attempted murders?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have attempted murder convictions for those.
14 And some of those people are very seriously injured
15 for the left of their lives?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I mean incapacitated in various forms. Also along
18 with those convictions you have attempted criminal
19 possession of a weapon second charges several times.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And assault first charges and so on. Now, the
22 composite still says 25 years to life, because that’s
23 the maximum that you can get for the minimum
sentence
24 is25 years. But of course you can spend the rest of
25 life in prison.
6
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You will be eligible to come to parole. If you are
3 not given parole, the most we give you is 24 months
4 and then you’re eligible to come back to talk to a
5 Parole Board again. Okay?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you’re clear about what goes on here with your
8 sentencing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I mean this is how it works?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In some cases, I’m sure you know, that your victims
13 wished these were all consecutive. In some cases they
14 were?
15 A. Yes, that’s one of the things that confused me for
16 the past 25 years is that some of the judges, two of
17 the three judges that sentenced me specifically
18 spelled out consecutive sentences in most of the more
19 serious crimes.
20 Q. That’s right.
21 A. And I was confused by that, because somehow it’s
22 not working out to be consecutive sentences.
23 Q. Because by law also the maximum you can get, no
24 matter what, is 25, and then you can say to life, so
25 that’s forever, you know.
7
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. I see.
2 Q. At one time there was such a possibility for you to
3 get 50 to life or something like that.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. But at this point that's what it is. That's what
6 the law says. All right. we certainly are familiar
7 with what occurred and as the public is in the
8 killings of all of these people, and we need to ask
9 you some questions about that. How did you pick your
10 victims?
11 A. Ma'am, I don't know. It just happened. I don't
12 know.
13 Q. You were in three boroughs?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was it about each of your victims that
16 attracted you to their whereabouts and your need to
17 kill them?
18 A. Ma'am, I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't
19 understand what happened. I can't comment on that.
20 Q. Do you remember each of the incidents?
21 A. Vaguely. Vaguely. It was a nightmare. I was
22 tormented too. I was tormented in my mind and in my
23 spirit. My life was out of control at that time and I
24 have nothing but regret for what happened.
25 Q. What do you mean you were tormented? What does
8
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 that mean today as you look back? What was this
2 torment?
3 A. I can't really explain it. It was just my mind was
4 not focused right. I thought I was a soldier for the
5 devil and all kinds of crazy things. I just have to
6 put that past me.
7 Q. But it will help us to understand or your victims
8 to understand what is is that was driving you
9 to these things?
10 A. Ma'am, I don't know.
11 Q. Were you under psychiatric care at the time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were not. You said there was something driving
14 you. At one point you said something about, in your
15 written materials, satanic --
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. --influences?
18 A. Yeah. I had things like the satanic bible that I
19 was reading. I just got stupid ideas out of it. I'm
20 not pushing the blame on anything. I take full
21 responsibility, but I just -- at the time things got
22 twisted.
23 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So your mind gets
24 twisted?
25 THE INMATE: It was, yes.
9
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You followed it up with
2 these deeds?
3 THE INMATE: Yeah.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But tell us about after
5 the first time. What did you do and how did you look
6 at yourself in the mirror and what did you say?
7 Sometimes the mind gets out of control and people do
8 things that they would never do again and they realize
9 it. what happened to you? You went out and killed
10 the first girl. You had to go home. You had to face
11 yourself?
12 THE INMATE: Yeah, it was terrible. I
13 wasn't facing reality. I just lost myself in that,
14 and I regret that so much.
15 Q. Did you think about, after you had committed the
16 crime -- you were working at the time, weren't you?
17 A. I was switching different jobs. I don't remember
18 which job I had when the first incident happened, you
19 know. Eventually I went to work for the post office.
20 Q. While you were involved in these crimes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you were able to go to work and function?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You didn't have any need to brag about anything to
25 anybody?
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David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. No, no, no.
2 Q. But realize what you had done maybe the night
3 before?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. You did?
6 A. Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you at any time when
8 any of this crime was going on reach out to anybody
9 for some help? In any fashion, did you try to make,
10 you know, any contact with a mental health person or a
11 friend or family member or somebody to give them some
12 clue that you were out of control, that you needed
13 help? You must have realized that this was not the
14 right behavior?
15 THE INMATE: Yes, yes, ma'am. I was trying
16 to talk to my dad. My dad knew something was wrong.
17 My step-sister, whom I was in contact with at the
18 time. I had some caring family members, but I
19 couldn't open up to them. I should have.
20 Q. What did they see different about your behavior?
21 A. I don't know. Maybe a lot of depression.
22 Q. But you would go out and do it again. You're
23 shaking your head.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. She needs to put things on the record. Had you
11
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 always carried a weapon?
2 A. No, ma'am, No.
3 Q. So did the weapon carrying just begin at the time
4 you were starting to commit these crimes?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
6 Q. Why did you get a weapon?
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: The record seems to
8 indicate -- you obviously can't answer the
9 commissioner's question. The record seems to indicate
10 you were in the service. You came out of the service
11 in 1974?
12 THE INMATE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And that your problems
14 started there or at that time?
15 THE INMATE: Around '75.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So prior to you going
17 into the service, you didn't have or you don't think
18 you had any mental health problems or anti-social
19 behaviors?
20 THE INMATE: Just bouts of depression from
21 time to time.
22 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you get treatment
23 for that?
24 THE INMATE: No.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So you dealt with the
12
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 life cycles and every day problems in the way you
2 thought it should be handled?
3 THE INMATE: Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You went in the service.
5 Were you honorably discharged?
6 THE INMATE: Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you use any drugs or
8 alcohol while you were in the service?
9 THE INMATE: Yes.
10 Q. Were you under the influence of any drugs or
11 alcohol at the time you committed these crimes?
12 A. No. No, I would drink wine and stuff at parties
13 and things, some type of satanic parties, marijuana,
14 but I was not under the influence.
15 Q. Would you leave those parties to go off to commit
16 the crimes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that a precipitating factor; you would go to
19 one of the satanic parties and the next step was for
20 you to go off and commit the crime?
21 A. Yes, sometimes.
22 Q. Was there anything in those parties that suggested
23 killing people on a random basis?
24 A. Well, it could have been in a sense, yeah,
25 because
13
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Q. You know -- go ahead. Finish what hyou were going
2 to say.
3 A. Because at the time I thought I was pleasing
4 somebody, you know. It was all twisted. It's not
5 going to make sense, and I'd really rather not discuss
6 it. I really feel I've said enough.
7 Q. Just, you've had psychiatric assistance since
8 you've been in prison, correct?
9 A. Well, a minimal amount when I first came to prison
10 to help me adjust.
11 Q. I'm wondering if any of that helped you reflect on
12 what occurred and helped you put it into some
13 perspective?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Not really?
16 A. I feel that today what's given me peace is my faith
17 in Jesus Christ and I'm very devoted to the chapel
18 service and helping out the men. In fact, it was a
19 number of Christians that helped me decide to come
20 down here today, because on June 28th I signed that
21 second refusal to not attend this hearing, and I had
22 some doubts. I brought that before the congregation
23 in the chapel we have here, and the brothers there. We
24 all prayed about the matter and I did a lot of -- I did
25 a lot of soul searching. And they confirmed to me
14
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Dave, you know, it would be best if you just go, and I
2 agreed with them. I felt the same in my spirits, so
3 I'm here today because of that, and my faith has
4 carried me through these 25 years.
5 Q. I noticed that in the record. We will get to that
6 as we talk about your programs and so on. I'm just a
7 little bit curious. When you came into prison you
8 were a Jew. Did you practice the Jewish faith?
9 A. Yes, I'm Jewish.
10 Q. Did you practice the Jewish faith?
11 A. Not really.
12 Q. On the outside, when you were on the outside?
13 A. No, I got bar mitzvaed and went to Hebrew school.
14 My mom kept the house kosher and things. I was raised
15 in a Jewish home. I still consider myself Jewish, but
16 I believe Jesus was a Jew, so if I'm following Jesus,
17 I'm still Jewish, but people have different ideas.
18 That's basically it.
19 Q. So your total involvement in the Christian religion
20 has been since you've been in prison?
21 A. Yes, pretty much.
22 Q. What made that change? What made that come about?
23 A. Well, after, I guess, I'd been in prison for ten
24 years and I briefly attended a Baptist church when
25 stationed at Fort Knox, Kentucky, because I was lonely
15
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 and they had a program where they would take
2 servicemen to church out there to give them a meal. I
3 met some Christians there, but I was struggling with a
4 lot of depression, and I was thinking of taking my
5 life in here, in prison, and I did make some like
6 suicide gestures and attempts at the beginning.
7 That's when I was in Clinton, when I first got there
8 and I was placed in isolation. It was back I think
9 '78.
10 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But in '76 you were at
11 CNYPC, weren't you?
12 COMMISSIONER TAPPAN: No, no.
13 THE INMATE: It was '78 it should be.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: '78?
15 THE INMATE: Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You went to the
17 psychiatric hospital in '78?
18 THE INMATE: Right, because I was acting out
19 at Clinton and having trouble coping, and they had me
20 in isolation. I thought I was going to stay there
21 forever and the walls were closing in on me. Anyway
22 to make a long story short after I'd been in prison
23 about ten years, some caring inmates and another
24 inmate specifically began to share his faith in Christ
25 with me. We became friends and he gave me a small
16
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 pocket bible to read. He said Dave, I really think
2 you should read the Psalms, because you're Jewish and
3 you'll get a lot out of reading the Psalms. And I
4 did. I started to read. In my cell at night I
5 started to read the little pocket Bible he gave me,
6 and I found that when I read the Psalms I'd start to
7 cry. And I didn't know what was going on. And one
8 night I was reading the psalms. I read Psalm 34 and I
9 just felt this need to get down on my knees in the
10 dark. I shut off my light and I began to pray, and I
11 asked God to forgive me for everything that I did. I
12 said I'm so sorry for the pain, grief, and suffering I
13 had caused everybody by my actions. And I just asked
14 him to forgive and help me, and it seemed like at that
15 point things began to change. this was back arund
16 early 1988, late 1987 early 1988.
17 Q. It's interesting that that's about the last time
18 you ever had a discipline in state prison?
19 A. I did catch one more misbehavior after that.
20 Before that my record was not to good. I had a lot
21 of coping problems. I ended up in the box, in Attica
22 and fighting, but after that my life really began to
23 change around a lot. I'm so thankful for that. I
24 really believe that I would not be alive if it wasn't
25 for --
17
David Berkowitrz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Q. Because that incident in Attica, I mean somebody
2 slashed your throat?
3 A. Right, in '79.
4 Q. And you were involved in fights?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Problems of that sort. How long did you spend at
7 Central New York Psychiatric?
8 A. I think about four and a half months. That was a
9 blur too. That was really a tough time, and they had
10 me on a light sleeping medication from what I
11 remember, and that was about it. I really could
12 hardly recall that.
13 Q. so '78?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Since then, when you came back into the other
16 prisons, have you had psychiatric intervention?
17 A. No, not that I really could recall. I mean, I know
18 the staff here, the mental health staff here. I talk
19 to them from time to time, but I don't think as far as
20 counselling type role.
21 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You haven't had
22 medications in years, right?
23 THE INMATE: Right.
24 Q. Years and years.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And you're really
not
18
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 listed as an active case?
2 THE INMATE: No.
3 Q. I have something that's kind curious. As I look
4 back through the record and looked at your -- I assume
5 he was your defense attorney, Leon Stern?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. A quote from him that said at the time of the
8 commission he was incurably insane. What do you
think
9 about incurably insane?
10 A. Well, he's saying I had no hope. I guess that my
11 life would always be what he saw me at the time, but
12 there's always hope. And I believe that God had
13 intervened in my life. If God had not done so, I
14 probably would have been like that. I probably would
15 have been just a bad disciplinary case and maybe even
16 have taken my own life, because I was really depressed
17 at times.
18 COMMISSIONER PLATT: When is the
last time
19 you had any hallucinations?
20 THE INMATE: Back in the late '70s.
21 Q. So maybe he shouldn't have said that, huh?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Would you suggest another attorney not to say that
at
24 another sentencing, this guy is incurably insane?
25 A. At the time, given what the way I was acting and
19
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 living at the time, he probably thought that that was
2 the case. I guess a lot of people thought that way.
3 Q. You proclaim today that's not true?
4 A. Yes, that's not true.
5 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And you believe
the
6 change is because of the intervention of God?
7 THE INMATE: Yes, I do, ma'am.
8 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So without that
9 intervention of God, the possibility is you may still
10 be in the same mental condition you were at the time
11 you committed all these crimes?
12 THE INMATE: More than likely.
13 Q. Or acting out in a big way, whether it was mental
14 illness or not, but your anti-social behavior would
15 have continued as it did in the early years of prison?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Well, we see the difference in the record in the
18 time period, because we get to the late '80's and
19 that's when the disciplines fall off. No more
20 disciplinaries since then. No more disciplinary
21 sanctions. And your list of program participation has
22 been stellar. Obviously you're getting all kinds of
23 excellent ratings. You participated in all kinds of
24 programs. What do you want to highlight? I mean it's
25 years now. we don't need to go through every
20
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 program you've taken while in prison, but what things
2 have been most significant, have meant the most to
3 you? You talked about religion and your involvement
4 in the religion?
5 A. Well, I enjoyed working as a chaplain's clerk which
6 I did, I think, twice for several years total. I
7 enjoy working where I do now. I have two jobs. In
8 the morning I work in E north, which is an
9 intermediate care program wkith guys with emotional
10 problems and other functioning problems. I work there
11 as an IPA.
12 Q. What do you do with these folks?
13 A. Inmate program assistance, I help out in any way I
14 can. I take the guys to -- you know, I help the guys.
15 I just try to encourage them. I just try to be a friend, a
listening
16 ear to some of these guys. They
17 have problems with depression, things that I went
18 through. I feel I can kind of relate to that. I
19 basically help them get going on their way to their
20 program, help them clean up their cell, try to
21 encourage them to participate in recreation, therapy
22 and that type of thing. Try to encourage them to go
23 to their programs and to take stay out of keep-lock.
24 A lot of them were on medication and things, so they
25 have atheir struggles. I'm just there to help them.
21
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 And in the afternoon I started recently as a mobility
2 guy. so I work with the sight impaiared or blind
3 inmate and just help them got to their programs.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Like an escort?.
5 THE INMATE: An escort, right.
6 Q. Educationally you've gotten some advanced
7 education?
8 A. I did complete a two-year degree from State
9 University of New York through Sullivan Community
10 College, and that's about it really.
11 Q. All right. As I mentioned there is a long list of
12 other programs that you have completed and, you
know,
13 obviously you've taken all the programs for
14 aggressive/assaultive behavior, and hopefully, you
15 know, that is never to be seen again. At least it
16 hadn't been seen in prison for the last about fourteen
17 years. You said in the beginning of the interview you
18 didn't see this as a real chance for you to go out on
19 parole and you weren't asking for parole?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What do you see your life like? How old are you
22 now?
23 A. I'm 49.
24 Q. How do you see the rest of your life?
25 A. Well, unfortunately because of the crimes that were
22
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 committed, as much as I wish I could take it all back
2 and reach out to the families that were hurt or are
3 hurting today, I see that I'll have to spend the rest
4 of my life in prison, or until the Lord comes, you
5 know. I see my life -- I feel very positive right
6 now. I think that I'm doing better than I've ever
7 done in my life. My goals are very positive. I try
8 to help encourage other inmates in the services.
9 Christian services we have, which are very good. A
10 number of men attend. They get benefits by that,
11 spiritual benefits. I write letters to people to
12 encourage them, a number of different Christians and
13 so forth. I've reached out to youth, you know.
14 Q. You're taking now about out in the community?
15 A. Right, out in the community.
16 Q. You've had interaction with groups and individuals
17 outside the community?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How have you identified those or how have they
20 identified you?
21 A. A number of people have expressed happiness that
my
22 life changed for the better, even in here. They find
23 my, I guess you call it Christian testimony very
24 useful and encouraging for other people, to let them
25 know no matter what situation they're going through
23
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 that there's hope. Different ministers from a number
2 of different states have been able to share like my
3 story with a lot of kids in juvenile detention
4 centers, and the responses have been really great.
5 Q. Do they communicate with you?
6 A. Not the youth. Just the ministers.
7 Q. Just the ministers?
8 A. But occasionally the ministers will share messages
9 from me, which they'll share during their service. I
10 hope that somehow I'm touching some lives out there.
11 I'm thankful that's one of the ways maybe I can make
12 amends to society. If somehow I can reach one kid out
13 there and try to discourage them from coming to prison
14 then well, thank God for that, you know.
15 Q. How about journalists, you stay in touch with some
16 journalists? I mean is it for your benefit or their
17 benefit? How do you see that, because you talked
18 about the media being interested in your case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And your concern about that. On the other hand
you
21 are staying in communication with some journalists,
22 aren't you?
23 A. Some. A very, very minimal amount. There was one
24 man from Channel 9 News that interviewed me
recently.
25 We exchanged a few letters. And then recently a man
24
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 from Dateline, NBC Dateline had written to me. He
2 wanted to -- NBC Dateline unfortunately is doing a
3 story of the 25 year thing. They asked me if I wanted
4 to be a part of that. I personally prayed about it.
5 I sought the advice of my dear friends.
6 Christian friends. I made the decision that I don't
7 want to do that.
8 Q. So you're not going to particpate in any interview
9 for that?
10 A. No, I'm pretty much done. I feel I've said
11 everything I could possibly say and I apologized a
12 thousand times. And they never get the stories right
13 anyway. They always twist one thing or other. I'm
14 just at a stage where I want to let all that go. My
15 contact with the journalists as a whole has been very
16 minimal. and I feel that's mainly their interest to
17 keep things going.
18 Q. What about the mother of Stacy Moscowitz?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You stay in touch with her?
21 A. We've had our ups and downs.
22 Q. Who initiated that interaction?
23 A. She had written to me through a man. a man who
was
24 a journalist did contact her, and she had written to
25 me a number of years ago. I did answer her letter.
25
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 We stayed in very minimal contact, you know, through
a
2 third party, this couple that's in Georgia. I'd
3 rather not mention their names.
4 Q. That's all right.
5 A. But they are a devout Christian couple, middle aged
6 with grown kids that already left home, and they have
7 a special affection for Mrs. Moscowitz, so they
8 reached out to her too. She's become the best of
9 friends with this couple, and they're in regular
10 contact. Mrs. Moscowitz did say late last year she
11 wanted me to correspond with her and we did do that,
12 and it turned out very well, better than I had hoped.
13 I also called her. She wanted me to call her. We
14 spoke on the phone several times and had good
15 conversations. It was like a dream come true to me.
16 But unfortunately --
17 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Why would it be
a dream
18 Excuse me for interruptiong. Why would it
19 be a dream come true to speak to Mrs. Moscowitz?
20 THE INMATE: Because I wanted to always
have
21 the chance to apologize to each of these families
22 personally, and I clearly can't do that as an inmate.
23 I just can't write families or contact them. I don't
24 know where most of them are.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: How did she
respond to
26
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 you?
2 THE INMATE: She responded very well.
She
3 was excited to hear from me. she assured me all was
4 forgiven, and I believe I called her on December 8th
5 of last year. That was our last phone call. It went
6 very well. We spoke about twenty minutes. But in the
7 process of time, another man, a journalist, media
8 person approached her with doing a story and coming
to
9 the prison to meet me in person before a camera. And
10 I wanted to help her. This person I think offered her
11 some funds. I don't know all the details. I'm not
12 privy to that, but she wanted me to do this. I was
13 hoping for the chance to one day be able to meet her
14 in person privately, just to apololgize and just to
15 share some things. But anyway after a lot of prayer
16 and soul searching, I felt it was not a good idea to
17 meet with Mrs. Moscowitz under that kind of
condition.
18 First, I don't think the prison would even have
19 allowed for that kind of interview to be arranged.
20 Second, I don't think that was good for either her or
21 me to do this in front of cameras for national
22 television. I thought that was really a bad thing to
23 do. and I told her. I said Neysa -- she always has me
24 address her as Neysa. I said Neysa, I can't go along
25 with this. She got pretty angry. I said, please, I'd
27
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 love to meet you. I'd love to see you one day. I
2 I pray God's best for your life, but I don't want to do
3 this. She got angry and hasn't been in touch with me
4 since. She kind of went back to hating me again.
5 That was a tough thing, you know, but it was --
6 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Does anyone in
the
7 community think of you as a threat?
8 THE INMATE: Do people think of me --
9 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Should anyone
think of
10 you as a threat?
11 THE INMATE: No, I don't believe they
12 should. I know they do, but I'm not a threat to
13 anybody.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: What's the major
15 difference, besides finding religion or is that the
16 only difference in David Berkowitz today and Mr.
17 Berkowitz when he committed these crimes?
18 THE INMATE: What happened in the past,
19 ma'am, was a terrible thing. I know that I would
20 never hurt another person again. I just know it. I
21 just know it. I have no desire to hurt anybody. I
22 want to be a blessing to people with my life. Even
23 though I'll be staying in prison I want to be a
24 blessing to men in here and even the staff. I just
25 try my best to get along with people and I could never
28
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 see myself personally hurting another person again or
2 even fighting. There are times I've had like guys
3 have been irate about one thing or another and I just
4 walked away. I don't even want to so much as get into
5 a fight. I've caused enough pain and hurt in people's
6 lives.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Other than the
religion,
8 you really haven't been able to pinpoint a character
9 difference, an operational difference, something
10 different about you today than the man who did the
11 crimes?
12 THE INMATE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Is that a fair
statement
14 or not?
15 THE INMATE: Yes, I would suppose so,
yeah.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Interesting.
17 Q. Do you have any family left on the outside?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Who is out there?
20 A. My dad, who lives in Florida.
21 Q. Do you communicate with him?
22 A. Yes, I do, on a regular basis. He's 92 years old
23 and he's happily married. He's doing good. He's
24 managed -- he's been married a long time now. He got
25 married in '71, I believe. And that's about it as far
29
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 as family. I have some cousins and things, but we're
2 not in contact anymore. Aunts and uncles have passed
3 on. there are a few left, but they're up in years.
4 Q. Do you have visitors?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Not by name, but how would the people come to
visit
7 you? Who would be the ones that come?
8 A. Mostly my Christian friends. Some are ministers.
9 Most are just ordinary people.
10 Q. People you met over the years through your
11 religious involvements?
12 A. Right, yes, yes. Some are even retired police
13 officers. We have a good relationship. We get along.
14 It's really been a blessing and a help to me, and they
15 say I've been an encouragement to them, so we have a
16 good relationship. It's kind of like I really see
17 that as my family now. Those of same faith as myself
18 I feel that we're all in a sense family. They treat
19 me as family. They consider me one of their own. And
20 that is a miracle too.
21 Q. Okay. Is there anything we haven't asked you or
22 you haven't had a chance to say that you would like to
23 say to us?
24 A. No, I can't think of anything.
25 Q. Are you glad you came or not?
30
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. Yes, it wasn't as bad as I thought. I really had a
2 lot of fears. My fears were unfounded. I thought I'd
3 get jumped on and stomped on, not literally, but, I
4 don't know, you hear all different kinds of stories.
5 And the first time I thought that there would be a lot
6 of media people outside around the gate and
7 everything, maybe even some families protesting and
8 screaming. I didn't really know what to expect and I
9 was -- but now I'm glad I got this over with.
10 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Let me ask you
one last
11 question so I make sure I understood everything you
12 said early on. I think Commissioner Tappan referred
13 thread beween the victims, you know. And is it
14 true that you said you never did understand what
the
15 thread was beween the victims? In other words, they
16 were mostly all brunettes, right? Did that a play a
17 role, a thread of --
18 Q. Why you chose your victims. Was it one thing you
19 were looking for?
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. Other people have made that into part of the story
22 is that you were looking for brunettes?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were looking for couples in cars?
25 A. Well --
31
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Is any of that
true, any
2 of those threads that were out there as the
3 commissioner said were in the press?
4 THE INMATE: Not really. from the best
of
5 my recollection I think maybe more than half the
6 crimes that happened did not happen in the parked
7 cars. It didn't happen in the so-called lovers lane.
8 It was just on regular streets and that's a lot of the
9 media stuff. I mean there's just been so much
10 rediculous stuff over the years.
11 COMMISSIONER PLATT: The reason I'm
asking is
12 one of the things that goes along with development,
13 personal development, character development, mental
14 health development is coming to grips and
15 understanding the motivational factors associated with
16 your behavior. And one of the things you would want
17 to consider is any tie, any thread. What made some
18 people more of a victim. You could have had two cars,
19 let's say. If there was a brunette in one and a blond
20 in another --
21 Q. All young girls. did you go after the women or the
22 young girls versus going after their partners or the
23 fellows that were with them?
24 A. No.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So basically there
isn't
32
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 and you've come to no understanding or grips of
who
2 they were. You've accepted it. I understand that.
3 THE INMATE: Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But I mean you've
not
5 developed much of an understanding?
6 THE INMATE: Ma'am, in all honesty I really
7 haven't. I still struggle with coming to grips with
8 some of the things of the past. There are still
9 issues that I have to deal with. I'm not there yet.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
11 A. Thank you very much.
12 Q. Good luck to you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You'll get a copy
of our
15 written decision in a couple of days.
16 THE INMATE: Okay. Have a nice day.
17 (The inmate was excused.)
18 (Whereupon, the Commissioners conferred.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 DECISION
2 Parole is denied, hold 24 months, next appeaqrance
3 6/04. Parole is denied. You are currently serving 25
4 years to life for multiple counts of murder two,
5 attempted murder two and criminal possession of a
6 weapon two. You were responsible for killing six
7 people and seriously wounding and permanently
damaging
8 several others, demonstrating utter disregard for human
9 life. This is your initial appearance before the
10 parole board, as provided by the law. In your interview
you
11 demonstrated limited understanding of the
12 motivation and insight into your criminal behavior.
13 You indicated abusive hallucinogenic substances,
14 psychiatric symptomology (depression) and
participation
15 in satanic/occult activity possibly contributed to your
16 commission of these heinous murders and attempted
17 murders. In the early years of your incarceration you
18 have received mental health services, including
19 medication as a patilent at Central New York Psychiatric
20 Center. You stated you are now no longer taking any
21 psychotropic medication. This panel recognizes your
22 positive program accomplishments and improved
behavior.
23 We acknowledge the letter you sent to Governor Pataki
24 expressing your remorse for these crimes and indicating
25 you deserve to be in prison the rest of your life. The
34
David Berkowitz DIN # 78-A-1976
1 extraordinary pain, suffering, and anger that you have
2 inflicted on the families and the community at large
3 continues. Discretionary release at this time would
4 deprecate the seriousness of these atrocious crimes and
5 diminish respect for the law. Unspecified guidelines;
6 caused death of victim, multiple victims involved,
7 bizarre nature of offense, multiple offenses, multiple
8 counts.
9 (THE COMMISSIONERS CONCURRED)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
14
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
2 I, Malkie Finer, a Shorthand Reporter in the
3 State of New York, do hereby CERTIFY that the
foregoing
4 record taken by me at the time and place noted in the
5 heading hereof is a true and accurate transcript of the
6 same, to the best of my knowledge and belief.
7
8
(signed) Malkie Finer
9
MALKIE FINER
10
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David-Berkowitz-Information Home Page
This is an Exact Transcript of the First Parole Hearing for David Berkowitz, July 9, 2002
1 PAROLE BOARD HEARING
2 STATE OF NEW YORK
EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT
3 DIVISION OF PAROLE
4**********************************************************************
**********
5 In the Matter of
6 DAVID BERKOWITZ
7 DIN# 78-A-1976
NYSID# 04176354Q
8**********************************************************************
**********
HELD AT: Sullivan Correctional Facility
9 Fallsburg, New York
10 Parole board Hearing
11 July 9, 2002
12
BEFORE: COMMISSIONER IRENE L. PLATT
13 COMMISSIONER PATRICIA R.
TAPPAN
14
ALSO PRESENT: LUIS ALVARADO, SPO
15 JOHN KEHOE, FPO 11
PAULA CHIN, APA
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 M&F REPORTING SERVICE
P.O. BOX 4279
DIVISION OF PAROLE
23 NEW WINDSOR, NEW YORK 12553
RECEIVED
(845-562-5190
(Rubber Stamp)
24
25
2
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-8-1976
1 INTERVIEW BY COMMISSIONER TAPPAN:
2 Q. Good morning.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. David Berkowitz?
5 A. Yes, ma'am.
6 Q. I'm Commissioner Tappan. With me today is
7 Commissioner Platt.
8 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Good morning,
Mr.
9 Berkowitz.
10 Q. This is your initial appearance before the Parole
11 Board. You were supposed to come last month and you
12 chose not to come?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you chose to come this month?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Any difference, any reason you want to say?
17 A. Yes, I had a lot of anxiety and I thought it would
18 be best for the families that I not come at all and I
19 -- after a lot of soul searching and a lot of praying
20 I just decided it would be best to just come and face
21 you and apologize. I'm not seeking parole.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I don't feel I deserve parole. I just came to
24 apologize for what happened in the past.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Why is that, Mr.
3
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Berkowitz? Why do you feel you don't deserve parole?
2 THE INMATE: Well, for the crimes that were
3 committed and people that are suffering today because
4 of my actions. I know they have a lot of pain and
5 hurt that will probably never go away so I - yeah, I
6 regret what happened. I wish I can go back and change
7 the past. I can't, so I have to -- I came to terms
8 with this and realize that I’m here in prison.
9 Q. By law, you’re entitled to this parole hearing.
10 A. Yes
11 Q. And by law we have things that we need to talk
12 about at the parole hearing to make a reasonable
13 decision --
14 A. I understand.
15 Q. -- about whether you’re eligible for parole or not.
16 Do you want to go through the regular parole hearing?
17 I mean we certainly want to do that. We’re willing to
18 it. Commissioner Platt and I would like to hear
19 answers to some questions, if you would like to answer
20 them?
21 A. I have mixed feelings. Right now I know the media
22 already started again with --
23 Q. Well, we’re not concerned about the media.
24 A. I know, but they -- always have more fuel. I
25 was hoping that after this was over with, after the 25
4
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-
1976
1 year mark and the media says all that they can
2 possibly say, that everybody, myself, my family, the
3 victims’ families can all get on with their lives.
4 Q. But you have to understand that the max that you
5 can get held is 24 months. And if you’re held 24
6 months, at that time when you’re coming up for parole
7 again , believe me, you know that all your victims and
8 everybody in the community is also going to know that
9 you ’re up again?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So it doesn’t go away. I don’t want you to be
12 misled to think that two years from now no one is
13 going to be interested in David Berkowitz. They will.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Probably forever,
Mr.
15 Berkowitz, as the commissioner says, but we want you
16 to understand that we’re also aware of the media.
17 Everybody is aware of you and the media in this case.
18 But we‘re not doing the interview for the media.
19 A. Okay.
20 COMMISSIONER PLATT: This is for us.
21 Q. We don’t have any concern about that. We’ll do the
22 right thing. We know that we will ask questions that
23 will satisfy us as parole commissioners in what we
24 need to do to make reasonable decisions.
25 A. I understand.
5
David Berkowitz DIN# 7 8-A-1976
1 Q. If you want to go through that, that’s fine. If
2 you choose not to, we will respect that.
3 A. I’ll try my best to help you out.
4 Q. All right. All right. Well, first of all we have
5 to talk about what you’re in here for.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And obviously there’s no question about that. 25
8 years to life.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And multiple, multiple counts. Six people who have
11 murdered and seven, I believe, attempted murders?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You have attempted murder convictions for those.
14 And some of those people are very seriously injured
15 for the left of their lives?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I mean incapacitated in various forms. Also along
18 with those convictions you have attempted criminal
19 possession of a weapon second charges several times.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And assault first charges and so on. Now, the
22 composite still says 25 years to life, because that’s
23 the maximum that you can get for the minimum
sentence
24 is25 years. But of course you can spend the rest of
25 life in prison.
6
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You will be eligible to come to parole. If you are
3 not given parole, the most we give you is 24 months
4 and then you’re eligible to come back to talk to a
5 Parole Board again. Okay?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you’re clear about what goes on here with your
8 sentencing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I mean this is how it works?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In some cases, I’m sure you know, that your victims
13 wished these were all consecutive. In some cases they
14 were?
15 A. Yes, that’s one of the things that confused me for
16 the past 25 years is that some of the judges, two of
17 the three judges that sentenced me specifically
18 spelled out consecutive sentences in most of the more
19 serious crimes.
20 Q. That’s right.
21 A. And I was confused by that, because somehow it’s
22 not working out to be consecutive sentences.
23 Q. Because by law also the maximum you can get, no
24 matter what, is 25, and then you can say to life, so
25 that’s forever, you know.
7
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. I see.
2 Q. At one time there was such a possibility for you to
3 get 50 to life or something like that.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. But at this point that's what it is. That's what
6 the law says. All right. we certainly are familiar
7 with what occurred and as the public is in the
8 killings of all of these people, and we need to ask
9 you some questions about that. How did you pick your
10 victims?
11 A. Ma'am, I don't know. It just happened. I don't
12 know.
13 Q. You were in three boroughs?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was it about each of your victims that
16 attracted you to their whereabouts and your need to
17 kill them?
18 A. Ma'am, I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't
19 understand what happened. I can't comment on that.
20 Q. Do you remember each of the incidents?
21 A. Vaguely. Vaguely. It was a nightmare. I was
22 tormented too. I was tormented in my mind and in my
23 spirit. My life was out of control at that time and I
24 have nothing but regret for what happened.
25 Q. What do you mean you were tormented? What does
8
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 that mean today as you look back? What was this
2 torment?
3 A. I can't really explain it. It was just my mind was
4 not focused right. I thought I was a soldier for the
5 devil and all kinds of crazy things. I just have to
6 put that past me.
7 Q. But it will help us to understand or your victims
8 to understand what is is that was driving you
9 to these things?
10 A. Ma'am, I don't know.
11 Q. Were you under psychiatric care at the time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were not. You said there was something driving
14 you. At one point you said something about, in your
15 written materials, satanic --
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. --influences?
18 A. Yeah. I had things like the satanic bible that I
19 was reading. I just got stupid ideas out of it. I'm
20 not pushing the blame on anything. I take full
21 responsibility, but I just -- at the time things got
22 twisted.
23 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So your mind gets
24 twisted?
25 THE INMATE: It was, yes.
9
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You followed it up with
2 these deeds?
3 THE INMATE: Yeah.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But tell us about after
5 the first time. What did you do and how did you look
6 at yourself in the mirror and what did you say?
7 Sometimes the mind gets out of control and people do
8 things that they would never do again and they realize
9 it. what happened to you? You went out and killed
10 the first girl. You had to go home. You had to face
11 yourself?
12 THE INMATE: Yeah, it was terrible. I
13 wasn't facing reality. I just lost myself in that,
14 and I regret that so much.
15 Q. Did you think about, after you had committed the
16 crime -- you were working at the time, weren't you?
17 A. I was switching different jobs. I don't remember
18 which job I had when the first incident happened, you
19 know. Eventually I went to work for the post office.
20 Q. While you were involved in these crimes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you were able to go to work and function?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You didn't have any need to brag about anything to
25 anybody?
10
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. No, no, no.
2 Q. But realize what you had done maybe the night
3 before?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. You did?
6 A. Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you at any time when
8 any of this crime was going on reach out to anybody
9 for some help? In any fashion, did you try to make,
10 you know, any contact with a mental health person or a
11 friend or family member or somebody to give them some
12 clue that you were out of control, that you needed
13 help? You must have realized that this was not the
14 right behavior?
15 THE INMATE: Yes, yes, ma'am. I was trying
16 to talk to my dad. My dad knew something was wrong.
17 My step-sister, whom I was in contact with at the
18 time. I had some caring family members, but I
19 couldn't open up to them. I should have.
20 Q. What did they see different about your behavior?
21 A. I don't know. Maybe a lot of depression.
22 Q. But you would go out and do it again. You're
23 shaking your head.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. She needs to put things on the record. Had you
11
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 always carried a weapon?
2 A. No, ma'am, No.
3 Q. So did the weapon carrying just begin at the time
4 you were starting to commit these crimes?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
6 Q. Why did you get a weapon?
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: The record seems to
8 indicate -- you obviously can't answer the
9 commissioner's question. The record seems to indicate
10 you were in the service. You came out of the service
11 in 1974?
12 THE INMATE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And that your problems
14 started there or at that time?
15 THE INMATE: Around '75.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So prior to you going
17 into the service, you didn't have or you don't think
18 you had any mental health problems or anti-social
19 behaviors?
20 THE INMATE: Just bouts of depression from
21 time to time.
22 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you get treatment
23 for that?
24 THE INMATE: No.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So you dealt with the
12
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 life cycles and every day problems in the way you
2 thought it should be handled?
3 THE INMATE: Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You went in the service.
5 Were you honorably discharged?
6 THE INMATE: Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Did you use any drugs or
8 alcohol while you were in the service?
9 THE INMATE: Yes.
10 Q. Were you under the influence of any drugs or
11 alcohol at the time you committed these crimes?
12 A. No. No, I would drink wine and stuff at parties
13 and things, some type of satanic parties, marijuana,
14 but I was not under the influence.
15 Q. Would you leave those parties to go off to commit
16 the crimes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that a precipitating factor; you would go to
19 one of the satanic parties and the next step was for
20 you to go off and commit the crime?
21 A. Yes, sometimes.
22 Q. Was there anything in those parties that suggested
23 killing people on a random basis?
24 A. Well, it could have been in a sense, yeah,
25 because
13
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Q. You know -- go ahead. Finish what hyou were going
2 to say.
3 A. Because at the time I thought I was pleasing
4 somebody, you know. It was all twisted. It's not
5 going to make sense, and I'd really rather not discuss
6 it. I really feel I've said enough.
7 Q. Just, you've had psychiatric assistance since
8 you've been in prison, correct?
9 A. Well, a minimal amount when I first came to prison
10 to help me adjust.
11 Q. I'm wondering if any of that helped you reflect on
12 what occurred and helped you put it into some
13 perspective?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Not really?
16 A. I feel that today what's given me peace is my faith
17 in Jesus Christ and I'm very devoted to the chapel
18 service and helping out the men. In fact, it was a
19 number of Christians that helped me decide to come
20 down here today, because on June 28th I signed that
21 second refusal to not attend this hearing, and I had
22 some doubts. I brought that before the congregation
23 in the chapel we have here, and the brothers there. We
24 all prayed about the matter and I did a lot of -- I did
25 a lot of soul searching. And they confirmed to me
14
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Dave, you know, it would be best if you just go, and I
2 agreed with them. I felt the same in my spirits, so
3 I'm here today because of that, and my faith has
4 carried me through these 25 years.
5 Q. I noticed that in the record. We will get to that
6 as we talk about your programs and so on. I'm just a
7 little bit curious. When you came into prison you
8 were a Jew. Did you practice the Jewish faith?
9 A. Yes, I'm Jewish.
10 Q. Did you practice the Jewish faith?
11 A. Not really.
12 Q. On the outside, when you were on the outside?
13 A. No, I got bar mitzvaed and went to Hebrew school.
14 My mom kept the house kosher and things. I was raised
15 in a Jewish home. I still consider myself Jewish, but
16 I believe Jesus was a Jew, so if I'm following Jesus,
17 I'm still Jewish, but people have different ideas.
18 That's basically it.
19 Q. So your total involvement in the Christian religion
20 has been since you've been in prison?
21 A. Yes, pretty much.
22 Q. What made that change? What made that come about?
23 A. Well, after, I guess, I'd been in prison for ten
24 years and I briefly attended a Baptist church when
25 stationed at Fort Knox, Kentucky, because I was lonely
15
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 and they had a program where they would take
2 servicemen to church out there to give them a meal. I
3 met some Christians there, but I was struggling with a
4 lot of depression, and I was thinking of taking my
5 life in here, in prison, and I did make some like
6 suicide gestures and attempts at the beginning.
7 That's when I was in Clinton, when I first got there
8 and I was placed in isolation. It was back I think
9 '78.
10 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But in '76 you were at
11 CNYPC, weren't you?
12 COMMISSIONER TAPPAN: No, no.
13 THE INMATE: It was '78 it should be.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: '78?
15 THE INMATE: Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You went to the
17 psychiatric hospital in '78?
18 THE INMATE: Right, because I was acting out
19 at Clinton and having trouble coping, and they had me
20 in isolation. I thought I was going to stay there
21 forever and the walls were closing in on me. Anyway
22 to make a long story short after I'd been in prison
23 about ten years, some caring inmates and another
24 inmate specifically began to share his faith in Christ
25 with me. We became friends and he gave me a small
16
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 pocket bible to read. He said Dave, I really think
2 you should read the Psalms, because you're Jewish and
3 you'll get a lot out of reading the Psalms. And I
4 did. I started to read. In my cell at night I
5 started to read the little pocket Bible he gave me,
6 and I found that when I read the Psalms I'd start to
7 cry. And I didn't know what was going on. And one
8 night I was reading the psalms. I read Psalm 34 and I
9 just felt this need to get down on my knees in the
10 dark. I shut off my light and I began to pray, and I
11 asked God to forgive me for everything that I did. I
12 said I'm so sorry for the pain, grief, and suffering I
13 had caused everybody by my actions. And I just asked
14 him to forgive and help me, and it seemed like at that
15 point things began to change. this was back arund
16 early 1988, late 1987 early 1988.
17 Q. It's interesting that that's about the last time
18 you ever had a discipline in state prison?
19 A. I did catch one more misbehavior after that.
20 Before that my record was not to good. I had a lot
21 of coping problems. I ended up in the box, in Attica
22 and fighting, but after that my life really began to
23 change around a lot. I'm so thankful for that. I
24 really believe that I would not be alive if it wasn't
25 for --
17
David Berkowitrz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 Q. Because that incident in Attica, I mean somebody
2 slashed your throat?
3 A. Right, in '79.
4 Q. And you were involved in fights?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Problems of that sort. How long did you spend at
7 Central New York Psychiatric?
8 A. I think about four and a half months. That was a
9 blur too. That was really a tough time, and they had
10 me on a light sleeping medication from what I
11 remember, and that was about it. I really could
12 hardly recall that.
13 Q. so '78?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Since then, when you came back into the other
16 prisons, have you had psychiatric intervention?
17 A. No, not that I really could recall. I mean, I know
18 the staff here, the mental health staff here. I talk
19 to them from time to time, but I don't think as far as
20 counselling type role.
21 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You haven't had
22 medications in years, right?
23 THE INMATE: Right.
24 Q. Years and years.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And you're really
not
18
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 listed as an active case?
2 THE INMATE: No.
3 Q. I have something that's kind curious. As I look
4 back through the record and looked at your -- I assume
5 he was your defense attorney, Leon Stern?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. A quote from him that said at the time of the
8 commission he was incurably insane. What do you
think
9 about incurably insane?
10 A. Well, he's saying I had no hope. I guess that my
11 life would always be what he saw me at the time, but
12 there's always hope. And I believe that God had
13 intervened in my life. If God had not done so, I
14 probably would have been like that. I probably would
15 have been just a bad disciplinary case and maybe even
16 have taken my own life, because I was really depressed
17 at times.
18 COMMISSIONER PLATT: When is the
last time
19 you had any hallucinations?
20 THE INMATE: Back in the late '70s.
21 Q. So maybe he shouldn't have said that, huh?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Would you suggest another attorney not to say that
at
24 another sentencing, this guy is incurably insane?
25 A. At the time, given what the way I was acting and
19
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 living at the time, he probably thought that that was
2 the case. I guess a lot of people thought that way.
3 Q. You proclaim today that's not true?
4 A. Yes, that's not true.
5 COMMISSIONER PLATT: And you believe
the
6 change is because of the intervention of God?
7 THE INMATE: Yes, I do, ma'am.
8 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So without that
9 intervention of God, the possibility is you may still
10 be in the same mental condition you were at the time
11 you committed all these crimes?
12 THE INMATE: More than likely.
13 Q. Or acting out in a big way, whether it was mental
14 illness or not, but your anti-social behavior would
15 have continued as it did in the early years of prison?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Well, we see the difference in the record in the
18 time period, because we get to the late '80's and
19 that's when the disciplines fall off. No more
20 disciplinaries since then. No more disciplinary
21 sanctions. And your list of program participation has
22 been stellar. Obviously you're getting all kinds of
23 excellent ratings. You participated in all kinds of
24 programs. What do you want to highlight? I mean it's
25 years now. we don't need to go through every
20
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 program you've taken while in prison, but what things
2 have been most significant, have meant the most to
3 you? You talked about religion and your involvement
4 in the religion?
5 A. Well, I enjoyed working as a chaplain's clerk which
6 I did, I think, twice for several years total. I
7 enjoy working where I do now. I have two jobs. In
8 the morning I work in E north, which is an
9 intermediate care program wkith guys with emotional
10 problems and other functioning problems. I work there
11 as an IPA.
12 Q. What do you do with these folks?
13 A. Inmate program assistance, I help out in any way I
14 can. I take the guys to -- you know, I help the guys.
15 I just try to encourage them. I just try to be a friend, a
listening
16 ear to some of these guys. They
17 have problems with depression, things that I went
18 through. I feel I can kind of relate to that. I
19 basically help them get going on their way to their
20 program, help them clean up their cell, try to
21 encourage them to participate in recreation, therapy
22 and that type of thing. Try to encourage them to go
23 to their programs and to take stay out of keep-lock.
24 A lot of them were on medication and things, so they
25 have atheir struggles. I'm just there to help them.
21
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 And in the afternoon I started recently as a mobility
2 guy. so I work with the sight impaiared or blind
3 inmate and just help them got to their programs.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Like an escort?.
5 THE INMATE: An escort, right.
6 Q. Educationally you've gotten some advanced
7 education?
8 A. I did complete a two-year degree from State
9 University of New York through Sullivan Community
10 College, and that's about it really.
11 Q. All right. As I mentioned there is a long list of
12 other programs that you have completed and, you
know,
13 obviously you've taken all the programs for
14 aggressive/assaultive behavior, and hopefully, you
15 know, that is never to be seen again. At least it
16 hadn't been seen in prison for the last about fourteen
17 years. You said in the beginning of the interview you
18 didn't see this as a real chance for you to go out on
19 parole and you weren't asking for parole?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What do you see your life like? How old are you
22 now?
23 A. I'm 49.
24 Q. How do you see the rest of your life?
25 A. Well, unfortunately because of the crimes that were
22
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 committed, as much as I wish I could take it all back
2 and reach out to the families that were hurt or are
3 hurting today, I see that I'll have to spend the rest
4 of my life in prison, or until the Lord comes, you
5 know. I see my life -- I feel very positive right
6 now. I think that I'm doing better than I've ever
7 done in my life. My goals are very positive. I try
8 to help encourage other inmates in the services.
9 Christian services we have, which are very good. A
10 number of men attend. They get benefits by that,
11 spiritual benefits. I write letters to people to
12 encourage them, a number of different Christians and
13 so forth. I've reached out to youth, you know.
14 Q. You're taking now about out in the community?
15 A. Right, out in the community.
16 Q. You've had interaction with groups and individuals
17 outside the community?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How have you identified those or how have they
20 identified you?
21 A. A number of people have expressed happiness that
my
22 life changed for the better, even in here. They find
23 my, I guess you call it Christian testimony very
24 useful and encouraging for other people, to let them
25 know no matter what situation they're going through
23
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 that there's hope. Different ministers from a number
2 of different states have been able to share like my
3 story with a lot of kids in juvenile detention
4 centers, and the responses have been really great.
5 Q. Do they communicate with you?
6 A. Not the youth. Just the ministers.
7 Q. Just the ministers?
8 A. But occasionally the ministers will share messages
9 from me, which they'll share during their service. I
10 hope that somehow I'm touching some lives out there.
11 I'm thankful that's one of the ways maybe I can make
12 amends to society. If somehow I can reach one kid out
13 there and try to discourage them from coming to prison
14 then well, thank God for that, you know.
15 Q. How about journalists, you stay in touch with some
16 journalists? I mean is it for your benefit or their
17 benefit? How do you see that, because you talked
18 about the media being interested in your case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And your concern about that. On the other hand
you
21 are staying in communication with some journalists,
22 aren't you?
23 A. Some. A very, very minimal amount. There was one
24 man from Channel 9 News that interviewed me
recently.
25 We exchanged a few letters. And then recently a man
24
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 from Dateline, NBC Dateline had written to me. He
2 wanted to -- NBC Dateline unfortunately is doing a
3 story of the 25 year thing. They asked me if I wanted
4 to be a part of that. I personally prayed about it.
5 I sought the advice of my dear friends.
6 Christian friends. I made the decision that I don't
7 want to do that.
8 Q. So you're not going to particpate in any interview
9 for that?
10 A. No, I'm pretty much done. I feel I've said
11 everything I could possibly say and I apologized a
12 thousand times. And they never get the stories right
13 anyway. They always twist one thing or other. I'm
14 just at a stage where I want to let all that go. My
15 contact with the journalists as a whole has been very
16 minimal. and I feel that's mainly their interest to
17 keep things going.
18 Q. What about the mother of Stacy Moscowitz?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You stay in touch with her?
21 A. We've had our ups and downs.
22 Q. Who initiated that interaction?
23 A. She had written to me through a man. a man who
was
24 a journalist did contact her, and she had written to
25 me a number of years ago. I did answer her letter.
25
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 We stayed in very minimal contact, you know, through
a
2 third party, this couple that's in Georgia. I'd
3 rather not mention their names.
4 Q. That's all right.
5 A. But they are a devout Christian couple, middle aged
6 with grown kids that already left home, and they have
7 a special affection for Mrs. Moscowitz, so they
8 reached out to her too. She's become the best of
9 friends with this couple, and they're in regular
10 contact. Mrs. Moscowitz did say late last year she
11 wanted me to correspond with her and we did do that,
12 and it turned out very well, better than I had hoped.
13 I also called her. She wanted me to call her. We
14 spoke on the phone several times and had good
15 conversations. It was like a dream come true to me.
16 But unfortunately --
17 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Why would it be
a dream
18 Excuse me for interruptiong. Why would it
19 be a dream come true to speak to Mrs. Moscowitz?
20 THE INMATE: Because I wanted to always
have
21 the chance to apologize to each of these families
22 personally, and I clearly can't do that as an inmate.
23 I just can't write families or contact them. I don't
24 know where most of them are.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: How did she
respond to
26
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 you?
2 THE INMATE: She responded very well.
She
3 was excited to hear from me. she assured me all was
4 forgiven, and I believe I called her on December 8th
5 of last year. That was our last phone call. It went
6 very well. We spoke about twenty minutes. But in the
7 process of time, another man, a journalist, media
8 person approached her with doing a story and coming
to
9 the prison to meet me in person before a camera. And
10 I wanted to help her. This person I think offered her
11 some funds. I don't know all the details. I'm not
12 privy to that, but she wanted me to do this. I was
13 hoping for the chance to one day be able to meet her
14 in person privately, just to apololgize and just to
15 share some things. But anyway after a lot of prayer
16 and soul searching, I felt it was not a good idea to
17 meet with Mrs. Moscowitz under that kind of
condition.
18 First, I don't think the prison would even have
19 allowed for that kind of interview to be arranged.
20 Second, I don't think that was good for either her or
21 me to do this in front of cameras for national
22 television. I thought that was really a bad thing to
23 do. and I told her. I said Neysa -- she always has me
24 address her as Neysa. I said Neysa, I can't go along
25 with this. She got pretty angry. I said, please, I'd
27
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 love to meet you. I'd love to see you one day. I
2 I pray God's best for your life, but I don't want to do
3 this. She got angry and hasn't been in touch with me
4 since. She kind of went back to hating me again.
5 That was a tough thing, you know, but it was --
6 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Does anyone in
the
7 community think of you as a threat?
8 THE INMATE: Do people think of me --
9 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Should anyone
think of
10 you as a threat?
11 THE INMATE: No, I don't believe they
12 should. I know they do, but I'm not a threat to
13 anybody.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: What's the major
15 difference, besides finding religion or is that the
16 only difference in David Berkowitz today and Mr.
17 Berkowitz when he committed these crimes?
18 THE INMATE: What happened in the past,
19 ma'am, was a terrible thing. I know that I would
20 never hurt another person again. I just know it. I
21 just know it. I have no desire to hurt anybody. I
22 want to be a blessing to people with my life. Even
23 though I'll be staying in prison I want to be a
24 blessing to men in here and even the staff. I just
25 try my best to get along with people and I could never
28
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 see myself personally hurting another person again or
2 even fighting. There are times I've had like guys
3 have been irate about one thing or another and I just
4 walked away. I don't even want to so much as get into
5 a fight. I've caused enough pain and hurt in people's
6 lives.
7 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Other than the
religion,
8 you really haven't been able to pinpoint a character
9 difference, an operational difference, something
10 different about you today than the man who did the
11 crimes?
12 THE INMATE: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Is that a fair
statement
14 or not?
15 THE INMATE: Yes, I would suppose so,
yeah.
16 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Interesting.
17 Q. Do you have any family left on the outside?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Who is out there?
20 A. My dad, who lives in Florida.
21 Q. Do you communicate with him?
22 A. Yes, I do, on a regular basis. He's 92 years old
23 and he's happily married. He's doing good. He's
24 managed -- he's been married a long time now. He got
25 married in '71, I believe. And that's about it as far
29
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 as family. I have some cousins and things, but we're
2 not in contact anymore. Aunts and uncles have passed
3 on. there are a few left, but they're up in years.
4 Q. Do you have visitors?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Not by name, but how would the people come to
visit
7 you? Who would be the ones that come?
8 A. Mostly my Christian friends. Some are ministers.
9 Most are just ordinary people.
10 Q. People you met over the years through your
11 religious involvements?
12 A. Right, yes, yes. Some are even retired police
13 officers. We have a good relationship. We get along.
14 It's really been a blessing and a help to me, and they
15 say I've been an encouragement to them, so we have a
16 good relationship. It's kind of like I really see
17 that as my family now. Those of same faith as myself
18 I feel that we're all in a sense family. They treat
19 me as family. They consider me one of their own. And
20 that is a miracle too.
21 Q. Okay. Is there anything we haven't asked you or
22 you haven't had a chance to say that you would like to
23 say to us?
24 A. No, I can't think of anything.
25 Q. Are you glad you came or not?
30
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 A. Yes, it wasn't as bad as I thought. I really had a
2 lot of fears. My fears were unfounded. I thought I'd
3 get jumped on and stomped on, not literally, but, I
4 don't know, you hear all different kinds of stories.
5 And the first time I thought that there would be a lot
6 of media people outside around the gate and
7 everything, maybe even some families protesting and
8 screaming. I didn't really know what to expect and I
9 was -- but now I'm glad I got this over with.
10 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Let me ask you
one last
11 question so I make sure I understood everything you
12 said early on. I think Commissioner Tappan referred
13 thread beween the victims, you know. And is it
14 true that you said you never did understand what
the
15 thread was beween the victims? In other words, they
16 were mostly all brunettes, right? Did that a play a
17 role, a thread of --
18 Q. Why you chose your victims. Was it one thing you
19 were looking for?
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. Other people have made that into part of the story
22 is that you were looking for brunettes?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were looking for couples in cars?
25 A. Well --
31
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 COMMISSIONER PLATT: Is any of that
true, any
2 of those threads that were out there as the
3 commissioner said were in the press?
4 THE INMATE: Not really. from the best
of
5 my recollection I think maybe more than half the
6 crimes that happened did not happen in the parked
7 cars. It didn't happen in the so-called lovers lane.
8 It was just on regular streets and that's a lot of the
9 media stuff. I mean there's just been so much
10 rediculous stuff over the years.
11 COMMISSIONER PLATT: The reason I'm
asking is
12 one of the things that goes along with development,
13 personal development, character development, mental
14 health development is coming to grips and
15 understanding the motivational factors associated with
16 your behavior. And one of the things you would want
17 to consider is any tie, any thread. What made some
18 people more of a victim. You could have had two cars,
19 let's say. If there was a brunette in one and a blond
20 in another --
21 Q. All young girls. did you go after the women or the
22 young girls versus going after their partners or the
23 fellows that were with them?
24 A. No.
25 COMMISSIONER PLATT: So basically there
isn't
32
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 and you've come to no understanding or grips of
who
2 they were. You've accepted it. I understand that.
3 THE INMATE: Yes.
4 COMMISSIONER PLATT: But I mean you've
not
5 developed much of an understanding?
6 THE INMATE: Ma'am, in all honesty I really
7 haven't. I still struggle with coming to grips with
8 some of the things of the past. There are still
9 issues that I have to deal with. I'm not there yet.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
11 A. Thank you very much.
12 Q. Good luck to you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER PLATT: You'll get a copy
of our
15 written decision in a couple of days.
16 THE INMATE: Okay. Have a nice day.
17 (The inmate was excused.)
18 (Whereupon, the Commissioners conferred.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
1 DECISION
2 Parole is denied, hold 24 months, next appeaqrance
3 6/04. Parole is denied. You are currently serving 25
4 years to life for multiple counts of murder two,
5 attempted murder two and criminal possession of a
6 weapon two. You were responsible for killing six
7 people and seriously wounding and permanently
damaging
8 several others, demonstrating utter disregard for human
9 life. This is your initial appearance before the
10 parole board, as provided by the law. In your interview
you
11 demonstrated limited understanding of the
12 motivation and insight into your criminal behavior.
13 You indicated abusive hallucinogenic substances,
14 psychiatric symptomology (depression) and
participation
15 in satanic/occult activity possibly contributed to your
16 commission of these heinous murders and attempted
17 murders. In the early years of your incarceration you
18 have received mental health services, including
19 medication as a patilent at Central New York Psychiatric
20 Center. You stated you are now no longer taking any
21 psychotropic medication. This panel recognizes your
22 positive program accomplishments and improved
behavior.
23 We acknowledge the letter you sent to Governor Pataki
24 expressing your remorse for these crimes and indicating
25 you deserve to be in prison the rest of your life. The
34
David Berkowitz DIN # 78-A-1976
1 extraordinary pain, suffering, and anger that you have
2 inflicted on the families and the community at large
3 continues. Discretionary release at this time would
4 deprecate the seriousness of these atrocious crimes and
5 diminish respect for the law. Unspecified guidelines;
6 caused death of victim, multiple victims involved,
7 bizarre nature of offense, multiple offenses, multiple
8 counts.
9 (THE COMMISSIONERS CONCURRED)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
David Berkowitz DIN# 78-A-1976
14
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
2 I, Malkie Finer, a Shorthand Reporter in the
3 State of New York, do hereby CERTIFY that the
foregoing
4 record taken by me at the time and place noted in the
5 heading hereof is a true and accurate transcript of the
6 same, to the best of my knowledge and belief.
7
8
(signed) Malkie Finer
9
MALKIE FINER
10
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